fiestaturbo.com

[Philie*RST]

I still don't understand what the story is about this?

Mar 1, 2006: Baby P is born.

Dec 11: Baby P is taken to his GP with a head injury, bruising to his nose and right shoulder. Mother "flustered" and claims he had fallen off the settee and been scratched by the dog. Baby P referred to Haringey Social Services and mother later arrested for assault.

Jan 26, 2007: Baby P returns to the care of his mother while she is still on police bail.

Mar 22: Social worker Maria Ward notices Baby P has a red mark on the side of his chin. The mother claims he bumped into a side table at her friend's home. Health visitor Paulette Thomas completes a one-year check and reports "no concerns".

Apr 9: The mother takes Baby P to hospital with a large swelling and bruising on the left side of his head and a small bruise on his right cheek. Social services are informed and a diagnosis of possible meningitis is made.

June 1: Ms Ward finds some bruising under the chin and a red line under his eye. Later, medical staff at hospital find 12 areas of bruising.

June 5: The mother is arrested for a second time and questioned by police. She claims she is a "damn good mum".

June 8: Photographs of a bruise at the centre of his spine are taken during a visit to his home by the police child protection team.

June 12: Childminder tells social services of concerns about sore on Baby P's head and says the toddler is often unwashed, smells of vomit and always seems to be hungry.

July 30: Ms Ward makes her last visit to see Baby P. He is in his buggy and has chocolate smears over his face and hands, and anti-bacterial cream on his scalp - to obscure injuries.

Aug 1: Baby P visits St Anne's hospital, allegedly suffering from fractured ribs and a broken back, paralysing him from the waist down. Dr Sabah al-Zayyat notes bruises to the body and face but does not carry out a full examination because Baby P is "miserable and cranky". In evidence, she insists "he didn't look any different from a child of his age with a common cold."

Aug 3: A 999 call is made. Baby P is taken to hospital but pronounced dead on arrival.

now the little feller should have been givien to custady of his father or put into care and away from his evil monster of a so called mother

[M1K3Y_B]

[jayrs]

capri, everyone has the right to feel as they do.

ok not everyone will see things the same way, and yes there is some as you say, sick stuff up about what we /some would like to do to these people and tbh, i couldn't give a toss if its inhuman, makes me a like a animal or what ever thats my thoughts and opinion and everyones entitled to them.

these people "should" be made to suffer for there crimes, it doesnt mean the person dishing out the punishment is as bad as them, what about when they used to hang people, the hang man was a hang man, not a killer or what ever and never would be, it was just hes job.

to say its wrong to think like this is just a opinion, and is yours (and many others), and to say it as you have comes across that you have basically labeled others, inc me that have said different, as basically being sick twisted people because we have these thoughts, i mean, take films like SAW, and other horror films, to come up with that shows theres plenty of these sort of thoughts about, it doesnt mean everyone are sick people nor should it be worrying to anyone, its just the human imagination.

anyway, based on what you have said, are you basically saying that the legal system as it is fair? and that they should be put into a nice warm prison with 3 meals a day for X amount of years then be let out with a new ID and protected at the tax payers expense just so it separates "us" from "them"?
this is what will happen but in no way is that fair in anyones book, even you have got to agree with that surly??

as for the bible, i dont read it and never have, so the quote means nothing to me, to me its a eye for a eye, in my book someone commits a crime against me, its my right to defend my self and give as good as i get, the only thing that says this and the following is wrong is the law and the so called "justice system", and as for my kids, until they are 18 they are my responsibility, and its my duty as a parent to protect them, i.e say some pedophile got hold of one of my kids, from what your is saying i should do nothing as it will make me as bad as them , where as in my eyes i would be more than happy to kill them in the most painful way possible, because they have no right to touch my kids, and they, now days, have more rights than me so are untouchable

and as for baby P, he had no way to defend his self and the system let him down and the sick fcuks were left to hurt him till it killed him

and im interested to know based on your last reply, in your option, what do you think should happen to the killers of baby P?
and im not asking this to make a argument or anything i really am interested to know your thoughts on it.

[Capri]

capri, everyone has the right to feel as they do.

ok not everyone will see things the same way, and yes there is some as you say, sick stuff up about what we /some would like to do to these people and tbh, i couldn't give a toss if its inhuman, makes me a like a animal or what ever thats my thoughts and opinion and everyones entitled to them

these people "should" be made to suffer for there crimes, it doesnt mean the person dishing out the punishment is as bad as them, what about when they used to hang people, the hang man was a hang man, not a killer or what ever and never would be, it was just hes job.

Of course. The hang man wasn't a killer, but the people sentencing a killer to death would have been - which is why we don't hang people any more.

to say its wrong to think like this is just a opinion, and is yours (and many others), and to say it as you have comes across that you have basically labeled others, inc me that have said different, as basically being sick twisted people because we have these thoughts, i mean, take films like SAW, and other horror films, to come up with that shows theres plenty of these sort of thoughts about, it doesnt mean everyone are sick people nor should it be worrying to anyone, its just the human imagination.

Now, Jay, you're inferring a lot from what I said here. I never labelled ANYONE as sick and twisted, I said the things that had been said made me feel unsettled. And you reference films like Saw - well, Saw was designed to be unsettling, so I think you can understand why I, and many others, will naturally feel that way.

anyway, based on what you have said, are you basically saying that the legal system as it is fair? and that they should be put into a nice warm prison with 3 meals a day for X amount of years then be let out with a new ID and protected at the tax payers expense just so it separates "us" from "them"?
this is what will happen but in no way is that fair in anyones book, even you have got to agree with that surly??

Again, don't try and twist what I said. Where did I say that the legal system as it is is fair? Where, in fact, did I say ANY of the stuff you've just said?

In answer to your question, my opinion is that prison is still the answer, but conditions need to be harsher than they currently are. That being said, one shouldn't form one's opinions based on what one reads in the Daily Mail. Despite what you may read, prison is still a bloody awful place to be, especially for a child killer. Don't you worry, they'll get their justice - if there's one thing convicts hate, it's a child killer. But I feel that sentences need to be tougher and that there are certain aspects which are far too cushy, and do need to be addressed.

as for the bible, i dont read it and never have,

So why attempt to quote it if you don't fully understand the part you're quoting?

so the quote means nothing to me

So, again, why did you quote it? My point in showing you what the quote actually says was to demonstrate to you that you were misquoting your source. Regardless of what the source is, that's not an ethical thing to do.

to me its a eye for a eye, in my book someone commits a crime against me, its my right to defend my self and give as good as i get, the only thing that says this and the following is wrong is the law and the so called "justice system", and as for my kids, until they are 18 they are my responsibility, and its my duty as a parent to protect them, i.e say some pedophile got hold of one of my kids, from what your is saying i should do nothing as it will make me as bad as them

Again with the twisting of the words Jay, where did I say that? I don't think I said 'do nothing', did I? What I'm saying is that to do the same as them makes you as bad as them. Yes, in some cases, an eye for an eye can be justified, but I personally don't feel that it can in this instance. And I'm not saying you should do nothing; I'm saying you should be able to do things the proper way, and I'm saying we should have a criminal justice system which metes out the punishment which is necessary, or which rehabilitates offenders who are sick in the head. What I'm saying is that the system ain't perfect, but if everyone took matters into their own hands, what you'd have is anarchy. And then it's goodbye to everything you hold dear.

where as in my eyes i would be more than happy to kill them in the most painful way possible, because they have no right to touch my kids, and they, now days, have more rights than me so are untouchable

They don't have more rights than you mate, and to say so is sensationalist Daily Mail speak.

and as for baby P, he had no way to defend his self and the system let him down and the sick fcuks were left to hurt him till it killed him

I agree, the system didn't work here and people should be taken to task for that. It was a catastrophic failure and the end result was both tragic and devastating. I'm not saying that's not the case. But we need to make sure it doesn't happen again. Looking to the past for the sake of retribution solves nothing; looking to the future for the sake of prevention does.

and im interested to know based on your last reply, in your option, what do you think should happen to the killers of baby P?
and im not asking this to make a argument or anything i really am interested to know your thoughts on it.

My opinion, as implied earlier, is that they should be locked up for life with no hope of parole, in a prison system which is harsher than the one we currently have. As I said, I don't think that what will happen to them will be fair and just bearing in mind the way the justice system is today, as I personally think that system needs some dramatic changes, but that doesn't mean I want their spleens pulled out through their nostrils or whatever.

[jayrs]

i dont know why you break everything down like that just to prove a point, when the posts them self are based on personal feelings, which will never be fully the same between people.
yeah ok for example the bible may say something different to what i mean, but you dont need to quote the bible when its fairly obvious what im getting at.
but look at it from a different point of view, not yours, im not saying yours are wrong or your a do gooder or that your views are not valid or what ever, but just take a step back and look at it from a different point of view, i.e different people see things differently and react to them in a different way, it by no means, means anyone one person is worse/sick/warpped (not that im saying you have said this..) or what ever to the next one its just personal feelings, and we all vent these in a different ways, some will say nothing, others a little, and then others speak up and make a point of saying what these sort of people (the killers, pedos etc) deserve and bloody well should get, so, dont take this the wrong way, but your reading into it way to much based on your own feelings, which like anyone you are intitled to but, because of this, weather the replys are un-settling or not, your replys (and i hope im wrong) to some of the posts, come across as sort of a "shut up you dont know what your talking about" sort of reply, BUT, as a mod, i appreciate you have a job to do and to a certain degree cant get involved in some things, but dont you think your being a bit harsh on some people just because of there views and feelings on this?

anyhow im sorry for my rant, this death of the nipper has touched me alot, i guess its where ive got kids, and yes the system needs a bloody good shake up, and when i say that pedo's have more rights i mean it in a way that for example, if the police re house them in a area, they have the right to stay secret, and yet everyone else, some with kids dont have the right to know that a pedo is in the area etc.

its prob best i refrain from further replys to this topic as its not my mission to up set anyone and cause problems amounts the forum mod/s or memebers, and if my comments and replys have offended anyone in anyway im sorry and please feel free to report it to a mod for removal.

[Capri]

Harsh? How have I been harsh? All I've been doing is presenting my side of the argument in a reasoned and logical way. I don't see how that's harsh. As for reading too much into things, I've just re-read my post and I can't see one point at which I've made out that you should shut up, any point at which I've labelled anyone as sick and twisted, any point at which I said the current legal system is fair, or any point at which I said you should do nothing if something bad happens to you or your family, which are all things you've suggested I said at some point. I think you're the one reading too much into things mate.

You keep talking about opinions and feelings and this that and the other, well yeah, these are MY feelings. I'm sorry if you don't like me expressing them, but I will do so (and continue to do so) to the best of my ability. I'm not trying to get you to stop replying Jay, but you have to accept that if you're going to have a debate, there are going to be people who feel differently than you and they're going to argue as damn well as they can. That's why I broke down your post, so that I could respond to each point you made one at a time in a clear, concise manner.

[jayrs]

as ive already said, everyone is different, and i wouldnt expect everyone to be the same and have the same response.
yes i know its a debate, and i have no problems with you expressing your feelings and opinions, and have not said anywhere in any of my posts that you or anyone shouldnt be doing so, if anything ive been wanting people to stat there feelings and opinions.
i know people feel differenty about this as thats what ive been saying all along, and as you say, people will argue there corner, so to speak

i know your not saying not to reply anymore, if i wanted to i would, but i'll watch the topic now but refrain from posting my views further (my choice), as we have both said, feelings and opinions on this differ between people, and it seems by a lot in some cases, and like many debates no matter what its about or who its between can, because of strong opinions, turn from a debate to a argument, untill someone stopps or a mod steps in and locks the topic like you have done in the past for what ever reasons.

[andymac]

There's no need to refrain from expressing your horror, disgust and dismay at the way things were completely mishandled by social services et al. Nor is there any need or desire from anyone for you to stop expressing your opinions of the perpetrators.

However, I would personally prefer it if everyone kept their personal thoughts on how to mete out punishment to themselves. That's personally prefer it. I don't think the whole "hot paperclips under fingernails" routine will make nothing good come out of this. Put the buggers to work; all these drug dealers, pimps, murderers, rapists and paedophiles. Bring back chain gangs - people complain about the state of the roads, well there's plenty of people in prison capable of sorting that out. Folks constantly complain about illegals, especially working in farming. Well, I'm sure I know where there's a large, completely unused workforce...

Perpetuating hate and revend will create an irreversible and unbreakable cycle. Do something positive with the people - make them work to regain their place in society - at lease we get something back.

[Dave_st170]

Signed